EAB’s Meacie Fairfax hosts a conversation with Melissa Burwell, Executive Director for Student Success at Carthage College, about the potential risks of using student alerts as a one-size-fits-all blunt instrument. The two discuss Carthage’s rollout of their early alert system to faculty, advisors, care units, and staff, and the adjustments they made based on analysis of data that showed significant variability in how those alerts were raised and resolved across different student populations.
Meacie and Melissa also share recommendations on ways to customize your early alert system to close equity gaps and help more students graduate.
0:00:12.8 Meacie Fairfax: Hello and welcome to Office Hours with EAB. This episode features a discussion between yours truly, Meacie Fairfax and Melissa Burwell, who leads Student Success Efforts at Carthage College. Melissa and her team are doing really first-rate work in helping to close equity gaps in student success, and in analyzing data to customize the way they use early alerts to identify and engage students who may be falling off path academically. Thank you for listening today and enjoy.
0:00:48.9 MF: Hello and welcome to Office Hours with EAB. I'm Meacie Fairfax, a student success and equity-minded researcher. If this is your first time listening, welcome, and if you're joining again, welcome back, I'm excited to have on the line today, Melissa Burwell, Director of the Student Success Center at Carthage College, to give us a peek into one college's journey to become an inclusive campus. Melissa, welcome, and please share a little bit about your role at Carthage.
0:01:16.4 Melissa Burwell: Sure, so I'm the Director of the Center for Student Success, and we work to ensure that students graduate and thrive along the way. We like to say that we help fire birds take flight and fire birds are our mascot. We use a case management and holistic advising approach and really work to kind of just connect students to resources and to opportunities to make sure that they have what they need to be successful, both inside and outside the classroom. And then I'm also part of our Moon Shot for equity work. I lead our implementation team and then also our Coordinated Care Advising team as well.
0:01:51.0 MF: Alright, fantastic, well, thank you for giving us a bit of that context. And for those of you who are listening, Carthage College, as she mentioned is a member of the Southeastern Wisconsin region. They are our inaugural region for the Moon Shot, so they're the furthest along, and all that to say is that Carthage is working to eliminate equity gaps in a big and comprehensive way with their neighboring public and regional colleges. Now, there are at a part of a region that has also intimately felt the effects of George Floyd's murder, Jacob Blake shooting, and continues like many of those listening to search for answers and ways to address the inequities embedded in our institutions and in our communities. So before we talk about the journey your team has been on to discover and address these equities, tell me a little bit about why Carthage, a private and a religious institution decided to take on this work back in 2020?
0:02:45.5 MB: Yeah, and I think actually, it started prior to 2020, Carthage had begun to look at data in a slightly different way and was especially concerned with students of color and first-generation students and the retention and graduation outcomes that they were experiencing. And so, we had begun to make some changes with how we do advising, some admissions kinds of things, and I really think that the seismic events of 2020 accelerated that work. And so, it really... In that summer of 2020, we unveiled our anti-racism plan of action, which had already been part of conversations that had been happening campus-wide, and for us, I think it really was about honoring this desire to educate students to be citizens, global citizens, and understanding as well the context of Southeastern Wisconsin, and some of the barriers that get in the way of students being successful in completing college. And so, those two things really allowed us... I think really inspired us to continue to accelerate and actually start digging into some of the policies and practices of actually, what does that mean here at Carthage? To address racism and sexism and all the isms that we know really get in the way of students being successful.
0:04:15.7 MF: Absolutely, and then just what you touched on just a... Just a short while ago, talking about global citizens, makes me think about the shooting that just happened over this weekend of an 18-year-old, and just wondering about the education and the conversations that the individual may or may not have had. And it brings me to even just think about as we're thinking about looking to help our students and support our students, what does that look like? And I know as individuals who are listening to this conversation, I am part of the Moon Shot for Equity Initiative, and so I'm quite familiar with a lot of the work that's happening there. And over the last year, Melissa and her colleagues, faculty and staff have undergone racial equity training with the USC Race and Equity Center. They also formed to continue to work across best practice teams, it's one of many that she's a member.
0:05:04.7 MF: And then with the other Moon Shot schools, right? They rolled out Navigate in the Student Success technology to scale that work. And as we're thinking about supporting of the students, I know many of our listeners can empathize with the idea that we want to support all of our students. We want them to be able to receive individualized attention, advising and support, but the reality is, is that the sheer number of students that each faculty or advisor have or is responsible for it makes it impossible, if not improbable. But at the same time, we know that not every student needs that, right? But we wanna make sure that our students get that support as they need it. And so, when we think about...
0:05:42.4 MF: When we provide and flag these early alerts and think about ways to support students, we wanna know who and how we're there to support. We wanna make sure that we've come along to the idea that there's a process to the technology that there's to support them in those moments. Carthage had reached that point and was ready to replace a home-grown system. So in fall of 2020, they rolled out Navigate. So Melissa, I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit about what that technology looks like going into last fall?
0:06:10.5 MB: Sure. So in fall 2021, we implemented Navigate and it was really started with the planning in the summer, and we really decided early on that we wanted to focus on three key audiences, so faculty, obviously, first year students, and then staff who interact most closely with our holistic advising model. And so we had identified four kinda key care units who center and kind of ground our holistic advising model, which is the registrar's office, student financial aid, our office in the center for student success, and then the Aspire Center, which was our career services. And early on really involved them in the building out in mapping of processes and the training, so that they would be really ready to go the first day, early August. And then we engaged students along the way in the summer to test with implementation, and then really trained key student workers, so Resident Assistants, orientation leaders, peer coaches, and front desk workers for those key care units to understand the student perspective. So even though we targeted the communication out to first year students, we knew that having some key student leaders would help them get integrated and start using it sooner...
0:07:31.5 MF: Absolutely.
0:07:32.6 MB: Rather than worrying about having to roll this out to every student, 'cause that's just... Seniors, they understand college in a way that first-year students don't, and so, I'm really kind of focused on first year students. And then for faculty, we focused on really just in-time training for them. So from the beginning, training them how to login and use it, and then the alert system, which was the easiest kind of connection to the system that they had used before. So, the ask for them was please use Navigate to submit alerts. And then some faculty kind of explored and started using other kind of features in it, but we really wanted them to understand why it was so important for them to submit alerts and how to do that and to understand why there were now more alert choices and the workflow for that. So, when you submit in an alert, what happens, what's your responsibility as a faculty member? And then who are the other people behind the scenes responding to those alerts?
0:08:37.7 MB: And then finally, we had a pilot in the fall semester with the progress report feature, and that was really intentional. We had wanted some key folks who had used who were significant users of our home-grown alert system to pilot that new feature along with folks who were part of our Moon Shot for Equity faculty partners as well, and then some suggestions from our deans of, "hey, these might be people who would be early adopters, to try this out, to then give us feedback on the timing, did it work, did the options make sense for you? "And be able to give us feedback to then make some recommendations for the spring semester.
0:09:21.9 MF: Yeah, and that sounds right. It sounds like it was a combination of individuals who have already done the work, were onboard with the work in terms of with Moon Shot, and so it made it easier in terms of figuring out those... The courses and those who go with as well.
0:09:35.0 MB: Exactly.
0:09:37.0 MF: I wanted to add for folks, if they tuned into a prior episode. Episode 91, or actually 92, to be [chuckle] correct here. You may have heard me discuss my research on how early alert systems may be perceived negatively by students who are looking for support. Or that when and how early alerts positive and negative are used, maybe skewed by demographics. So that's kinda where we're gonna start our conversation today and dig in a little bit and talk about going into that fall. In your estimation, anecdotally, before you saw the data, how did the fall 2021 go and what did you hear from students? What were folks saying about this initial pilot?
0:10:18.9 MB: Yeah, so I think from the student point of view, what we heard first was about the system itself and how much... Several kinds of sophomores and above said, "Gosh, I wish I'd had this tool myself when I was starting out," and then they kind of became more aware of the alert piece and that there was this additional communication. And students... The things that we heard in the fall were that they appreciated getting a high five alert, which was this positive like, "Hey, you're doing great." And they thought... They didn't realize that positive alerts were an actual thing, and so, it was fun to get a response when we would send out a note of say, "Hey, I saw you got this positive alert, this high five," and they were kind of just like, Oh, you know, it was nice to be noticed and recognized in that way. And so, that it did the thing we wanted it to do in the sense of encouraging them in that. We also found that students found features in the system, in Navigate that we didn't really kind of market to them.
0:11:35.4 MB: So one of the things that we found a lot of first year students use right away was the study buddy feature, which has kinda defined other folks who wanted to study, and we thought that was really interesting that of course, they go in and click through everything, right? They're digital, right, learners, they know how to do that. [chuckle] So that was really great. I think in terms of faculty and staff, we found that they did what we wanted them to do. So, faculty used the alert system, we had way more alerts than we had had in the previous year, and the care units were able to kind of book and manage easily the appointments and manage the communication for alerts. I think on the less great side, faculty took a little bit of time to see what the system could be used for besides alerts, 'cause there's so much more that could be there. And not all care units were kind of as consistent with responding to alerts, it was maybe happening, but they kind of forgot that you could share that information in the notes section of an alert, in the comments. So they were doing the work, but not necessarily documenting it, which is one of the values of the system...
0:12:52.9 MF: That's right.
0:12:53.6 MF: Of being able to share information. So I think just getting used to that step of documenting was one of the learnings that we came to in that first semester.
0:13:08.8 MF: Yeah, and I think it can be tough for folks at that moment too, in terms of what does that look like, and how do I interact with the system that I've never interacted with before? But it's wonderful to hear as you talked about kind of our digital natives, our students who are out there who are exploring and figuring this out. And it sounds like from what you shared, that the positive alerts folks were seeing, that students were feeling seen, that they felt supported, and that's exactly where we want to be with our students when we're thinking about just any other level of support or just any further encouragement that they may need at any point or time during their studies.
0:13:45.8 MF: Now, I do wanna talk a little bit more about... Because one of the things I talked about my research is that when we disaggregate that data, there's a great deal of information that we can find that we don't know while we're doing the actual alerts and we don't know who's responding to them, or how they're responding. And I thought what was interesting about what you shared is that you talked about the positive, but you didn't say about the alerts that might have come down on some of these other ones and what their responses might be, and I'm sure we'll probably get to that, right? But tell me a little bit about that disaggregated data, the alert data you pulled for Navigate and also, who was that data to be shared with and for what purpose?
0:14:25.8 MB: Sure. So, one of the tools we were given as part of Moon Shot was an equity audit workbook, and the Coordinated Care team had decided, and implementation team had decided really kinda early on that reviewing data after the first semester would be a really important thing for us to do. Partly because we had never had something that robust to look at. We had information about the numbers of things, but not at the disaggregated piece of it. And so we wanted to make sure that we started using and building that muscle of looking at data and understanding it. And so we particularly wanted to understand how students interacted with alerts and appointments to who was being served and who wasn't, who was receiving alerts about them or not, and what were kind of the common alert reasons and for whom were the most kinda common alerts about.
0:15:22.0 MF: Right.
0:15:23.5 MB: And so we disaggregated by race and ethnicity, gender, first gen, and year in school a little bit. And what we found was that white women received more positive high five alerts than men and students of color. And we found a disproportionate number of students of color receive negative alerts, especially as related to attendance than our white students. And those were the things that really kind of stood out from the data. And the appointments with care units kinda followed a similar pattern that we tended to have more women have appointments and more white students than students of color than you would expect for the overall student population. And so, we shared that information in January after we had gotten through the first six months, and we shared it with our Moon Shot for Equity Leadership team, which was the team leads, the sponsor for our institution, and then the president.
0:16:26.2 S3: Our Navigate Leadership Team, which was kind of that implementation and coordinated care team, and then we have a cross-institutional student success team, which really includes folks from Admissions, Residence Life, Dean of Students, Financial Aid, the provost office, learning, accessibility, athletics, it's kind of a large group, the registrar's office. And so we wanted to share it with those groups of folks to wrestle with what makes sense, what are we missing, what do we need to know more about and kind of try and unpack. And I think it was helpful 'cause it helped us to confirm some hunches that we had about who was being served or not.
0:17:15.4 MF: That's right.
0:17:17.5 MB: And also to kinda say like, what are some additional questions or things we need to unpack that are specific to Carthage? And so, I think because it's also a really tangible way to go, this is how you work to dismantle systemic barriers, is you understand the data and so kind of to see what are some barriers there that we didn't... We had a hunch they existed, but now we actually know that they do.
0:17:51.2 MF: Yeah, and the thing I would add too is that, even when you get to this point, folks are like, the data review, then what do you do, right? The what happens next? And then also what are the conversations that ensue, because we also know that the interpretation of what is being shared can vary greatly across groups, across campus stakeholders, across hierarchies, you name it. So, I would love to hear about some of the reactions to the data and just anything... If anything... If there was anything that was surprising.
0:18:25.0 MB: Yeah, I think... So we had expected that fewer students of color would respond to meeting invites and appointment campaigns, and that's what we found. And then I think there was a hunch that we would expect to see more students of color, they would be overly represented in terms of alerts. And that was true. But when we try to unpack, for example, the numbers around white women and the high fives, part of that came from this pilot, so we had never had positive alerts before, but we also realized that most of the classes in the pilot were in majors that had a majority of women who were majors so it already kind of gender-wise. But the fact that it was white women more than women of color also is important. That's an important thing to recognize. So what might be going on there? And I think part of what we wondered, right, so where do women of color end up in majors at Carthage and versus white women. So for example, the Progress Report, we had several education major-related classes, which tend to have more white women than women of color, so there's some of that of unpacking the reality of what...
0:19:57.2 MB: Of kind of where students end up, which was part of the reason in the spring, we chose to try and broaden the type of classes in our progress report pilot, and so we'll have to find out if that helps to correct some of that or it's still true. It doesn't matter kind of the major-related courses, if it's more, still continues to be more white women getting those high fives. I think... Go ahead.
0:20:28.3 MF: Oh, no, no, I was just gonna say, I think that's very interesting as well, because when folks are looking at the data, you bring up a very good point about looking at the share of population or the share of those students actually in those classes, and it brings up another point, as we're thinking about the kind of the dearth that we think about the long view of what's happening in our education system, what about the pathway for more women of color, males of color to become education teachers, to go into those pathways as well. So we have to... There's other conversations, it sounds like in terms of just the alert data that goes into the classrooms, that goes into the majors, that gives you some other ways that we may be helping our students... We may not know what's going on with our students, or there may be ways to kind of bridge and think about the conversations among those classrooms or what's happening and how they choose those majors. But the one thing I wanted to bring up though and wanted to ask you a little bit more about, is about the white women getting flagged, getting these positive alerts and just wondering, culturally what that may look like, or how we might have thought about diversity in the past. This isn't necessary a question to answer, but one also even for our listeners to think about in terms of what have we thought about being diversity.
0:21:46.3 MF: So even here at EAB, when we think about the diversity that we've done prior to 2020, it was for women, and it was increasing the number of women here, but it was also a skew towards white women, so it's how do we determine and make sure that as we're trying to support many of our students and much more of our students that those data points, that those are captured and we have continuing conversations about that, which sounds like that's happening at Carthage as well. The other thing I want to talk about though, is that you talked about that there was the expectation, and I think that's real in terms of the research, that there's gonna be less response rates from students of color in terms of coming to these appointments. Where and how, or what are the ways in which your team may be looking at how to make it kind of familiar or make sure that there is a connection with a student prior to those alerts coming out?
0:22:40.9 MB: Yeah, so I think one of the things we've really learned... So a couple of things, because we assign caseloads of every student gets in our office at least a student success advisor from before they start in the summer leading up, that those initial meetings are super important to just establish a relationship and to normalize that you hear from us, not just when something's gone wrong. But that you should expect that you're gonna get every so often an email or a text, or we're just gonna check in 'cause we wanna hear the good stuff and that it's not always about, You need to change your behavior in some way. Right? And so I think, especially being at a smaller private institution, that's even more critical in the classroom as well, that students learn to expect that they're gonna hear from their faculty, that they're gonna hear from other folks across campus, and so we talk about the holistic advising model that you have this team of folks assigned to you to work with you, and you're gonna hear from us in different ways at different times, and so normalizing that and communicating that, and we all know students need to hear things multiple times in multiple ways, and having that shared messaging, I think really plays an important part.
0:24:07.0 MB: One of the questions that we ask in our survey to students in the spring semester was, Do you only hear from your student success advisor when something bad happens? How much do you agree with that? Right. And what we hear is like, No, that's not true for them. They hear about... They hear from them more, not just when things are going wrong. And so I think that's really important to kind of have multiple folks across campus sharing that messaging and living that out. And then I think too, just having real kind of consistent shared, being intentional about What does messaging look like with the alerts and kind of... What we try really intentionally, and we've shared the messaging, like we've had multiple folks look at it, when we have those automated responses of really trying to communicate to students that there's still time, you have a chance, this is an opportunity. We wanna work with you. There's still room for you to be successful in this class, or be successful this semester, and we're here to help you because we know you can do it. So writing those messages in that way, I think also helps to communicate to students that, yes, You maybe got an alert or a notification, but even calling it a notification versus an alert helps in that understanding.
0:25:41.1 MB: Now, when you're getting up to students who've had like seven, eight alerts in a semester, we also know they know what they need to do, and for a lot of reasons, they maybe have just decided, either this class or this semester, I just need to pause and take care of my own things before I come back. And so we really take the approach of wanting to keep the door open as long as possible, and so it's okay that we kind of keep giving those messages to students because eventually we trust that they know. Okay, that's the person when I'm ready to come back, I can reach out to. And so even if we do get unresponsive students, you never know that 10th time, that's the time, so.
0:26:34.2 MF: Well, and I love that 'cause that's never giving up on the student, and I think that's what we've heard about for many of students when we're even thinking about those who want to re-enroll and are just trying to find what that pathway would be back to either your institution or to another institution.
0:26:48.3 MB: Sure.
0:26:49.2 MF: And one of the things that I want to circle back to, 'cause we were talking about the work of the advisors, but I want to circle back to the work of the faculty, because we know that's where they spend the bulk of our classroom time, and there is... There has been some conversation, but maybe not, maybe not enough conversation about what it looks like about when and how they alleviate these alerts or these notifications with students. So I would be curious just to have your thoughts of how do we help faculty of recognizing correct maybe the problem before they let it bias affect the way they communicate with or make assumptions about different students.
0:27:23.6 MB: Yeah, yeah, I think it has helped tremendously for me and for us to have faculty on our Moon Shot committees, so getting into the implementation. They have really helped us to frame even how we talk about alert with faculty and make sense of it. So being able to have that cadre of folks to be able to say, Here's what we have learned about. So one of our faculty who's on our Moon Shot committee, I don't know, it was probably in March, we had had... There were lots of concerns about students struggling with mental health, and she sent a note to faculty saying, Hey, don't forget, one of the things that you can do is to give good feed... Positive feedback to students, and she did it on her own, of just saying, Hey, think about giving positive feedback through the Navigate high five alert as a way to notice students and to recognize them. And so that was just an example of... Because she had been equipped with the information, had been part of the conversation, and she was hearing the faculty conversation about being concerned about students, saying, This is a way that we can address some of those concerns as faculty, that's kind of easy low-hanging fruit.
0:28:45.3 MB: And so I think for faculty that has been part of it. I think the other thing that was really helpful is that the start of the year, Tim Renick visited from Georgia State and was really able to talk specifically to faculty about this work for Moon Shot and to help them translate the conversation about institutional commitment to equity, what does that mean as a faculty member and connect that to the Navigate work that we've been doing, and to really have then multiple conversations in the fall and in the spring, we have provided some updates to Deans and Department Chairs, so that they then can go and have those conversations among faculty about, How does this show up in your classroom?
0:29:36.7 MB: So part of it is sharing that. I will say as well, one of the other things that has been interesting to me is that we also have gotten feedback that folks aren't sure if faculty are ready to have all the disaggregated data. And so thinking about how we frame that. So we were still kind of working through some of that. But how do you frame that for faculty so that it doesn't affirm some of those biases about what they think about Black and Brown students, right? And so thinking about how to do that as an institution, I think we're still working to figure that out, so there's progress on one hand, but then also there are moments where we have to pause and really go, Okay, so what does this mean? And as someone who's not a faculty member, I really have to rely on faculty and others who are part of our work to move that forward. But I think what we do is to be able to say, "Well, here's what we're seeing, what does this mean for you?" In a way that because didn't have that connection before, we might have seen that, but we had no way, no real kind of clear shared responsibility, and now we do through this work.
0:31:03.1 MF: Yeah, and that's an important part that I want to just double down on, that even as we're doing the institutional equity work, there's still individual work that needs to happen and their support for that work too, because it begs to ask the question about what type of behavior are faculty drawn to? Who catches their attention just because of the way they look or the way they act at these classes and these are the correct representation? For many it may be, for others it may not be. And I think those are a lot of the questions that many of our listeners will continue to have, and to think about. One of the things I wanted to talk about, I know that you've made some changes in terms of what has happened, and what has taken place across this last year, and then it continued to be a learning. Almost like a learning lab and in real time as you're doing this work. So I would just love to hear about what were some of the changes that you were able to make for students across alerts and appointments?
0:31:52.7 MB: Sure, so one of the big ones was with the attendance alerts. We have three, so excessive attendance, missing one or two, and then changes in attendance behavior. And we had realized that a lot of... So we had a disproportionate number of students of color receive those attendance alerts, and then when we looked back at it, we also realized that the timing was a little bit off, so we got a bunch of excessive alerts before we had done our enrollment census, which it could be that we... The timing of it... If we had waited after that, would we have gotten a different outcome? So that was one thing. Also, you have to unpack that. Is it... Why did students of color get more of those... Is it because at a PWI, it's just a little bit more students of color stand out in a way and so you notice when they're not there, right?
0:32:56.1 MF: That's right.
0:32:57.3 MB: So you want to kind of unpack that. So for spring, we decided, let's know what absence alerts until after the census, enrollment census has been done. And then on the back end, we have a late withdrawal deadline, and we also found more students of color had more of those recommend to withdraw from a class. Which is another kind of interesting thing.
0:33:23.8 MF: That's right.
0:33:23.9 MB: But we waited and drew the line at once that deadline passed faculty could not choose to recommend a student to withdraw from a class, and so we're interested to see this spring, What happened? Do we see... Did that correct it or not? And I don't know at this point in time, but that's our hope, in that we didn't... That we kind of got the outcome we were looking for. Some other... We added some other high-five alerts, and then one that came kind of halfway through right around advising for fall is that a faculty member said, "You know, Melissa, it would be really great if there was an advising no response, 'cause students didn't sign up for their advising appointments," and I was like, "That's a super easy one to change." So faculty now feel like, Oh, this actually would be helpful, and what's interesting to me is... So that was one faculty and I said, Okay, well, just let other people know, ensure enough people found that alert without us having to tell them to use it for that purpose. And so I think just being able...
0:34:40.4 MB: That kind of organic as people are using it saying, Hey, I think this would be helpful to me and it will bring in other people, so part of the advising no response, allowed us to then find the folks who that student knows really well, and it helped us to uncover some students who are interested in transferring, students who are maybe thinking about withdrawing, but not sure. So sooner rather than later. And so I'll be interested to see when we disaggregate what that looks like as well.
0:35:13.5 MF: Yeah, and as you're getting from Melisa well, this is the journey that is perpetual, we will... They will continue to reiterate and have conversations with their teams. The last thing I want to bring up a note and tell you to continue to follow and see what this will look like, at Carthage College is that a larger conversation that came out of this about... And I think it's just worth to bring up for folks here about attendance policies. Now, we have gone through a number of years, right? Where we've allowed them to be online, and there's been attendance in some ways, but attendance isn't necessarily a universal policy across faculty member or even part, maybe partly a great policy or may not, but yeah, this is another area which begs to ask the question about when and how should attendance be utilized? Is it necessary, as we think about international students that come from other countries where that's not... Attendance taking isn't necessarily a thing. Just think about better ways to understand and to view holistically what looks like student disengagement is an actual disengagement as well, and so I'm gonna... We've had so much to say and there's so much more to say, so there's...
0:36:26.0 MF: I just wanna encourage folks, we will continue with our conversation with Carthage in many different ways over the next year, so look for that on eab.com. But I wanna make sure to say, lastly to Melissa that this wasn't necessarily a rock that your team was looking to overturn when you joined. What are a few takeaways or advise you would have for student success leaders to ensure that your student alert system is helping and not potentially triggering students?
0:36:52.7 MF: Yeah, so I think what's really been helpful for us is having faculty champions who are also critical friends, so being able to kind of help have the conversation together about making meaning out of that disaggregated data. That it is an iterative organic process, and that it's okay to change things mid-stream. So you don't have to wait until the end of the year to change things if you see it not working or that it's not doing the thing that you want us to do, essentially. And I think too, that a lot of what we've learned this year is that it just takes time to have conversation with one another and to wrestle with it, and especially with the pandemic and the last couple of years, that's been really hard to do, but I think as we have had more opportunity to come together around these questions and to say, This is what I see, this has been my experience. What's your experience with students? It also, it just does take the time of having conversation together and kind of swirling with it, that really begins to make change happen.
0:38:16.3 MF: Well, thank you for that, Melissa. And you've heard it here in terms of those continued conversations that we should have a student success leaders to ensure that we don't miss those connections with our students. And as I said, just a short while ago, we look forward to sharing Carthage continued work in future podcasts. If you wanna learn more about my research Missed Connections, there'll be a link on the podcast page as well as a link to learn more about the Moon Shot, if you wanna learn about that. But I just want to thank Melissa for joining us again on Office Hours for EAB, it's been a pleasure to be with you.
0:38:48.4 MB: Thank you. It's been great.
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