How Loan Reform Will Redefine Graduate Education

[music]

0:00:10.3 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Office Hours with EAB. In today’s episode, we’re diving into one of the biggest changes on the horizon for graduate education, the end of Grad PLUS loans and the new cap on Federal Direct Loans. Our experts break down what these shifts mean for graduate enrollment leaders and and financial aid strategists, and they share practical steps you can take to prepare. It’s an important conversation you won’t want to miss, so give these folks a listen and enjoy.

0:00:42.7 Amy Luitjens: Good morning and thank you for joining us today. We’re looking forward to having a conversation about talking about some changes coming with Grad Plus Loans and other direct loan caps today. My name is Amy Luitjens and I’m a managing director here at EAB. I work in our Adult Learner Recruitment Group, helping institutions think about marketing and enrollment strategies for their graduate and professional school programs. Prior to coming to EAB, I spent my time on campus in a range of different enrollment leadership roles, especially in the graduate and professional school world.

0:01:14.7 Amy Luitjens: And so with that, I’m lucky to have the conversation today with one of my colleagues about some of these changes that are coming. I think that one of the things that’s so interesting about graduate enrollment and professional school enrollment and how much it’s changed in the last couple of years, last 10 years or so, is that really in the past, as many of you listeners know, university leaders like yourselves have counted on growth in their programs even when there’s been a lot of fluctuation in undergraduate enrollment. And it hasn’t always been an effective or realistic strategy, but I think that it has worked in many cases.

0:01:51.1 Amy Luitjens: And then now with some of the changes that are coming, we’re seeing quite a good deal of risk that we expect to be increasing in the next six to nine months. And so with that in mind, we’re really thinking a lot here about not only making sure we’re aware of the changes that are coming, but then like we’re doing today, having conversations with each other and with the broader higher ed community about some of the things that institutions might need to consider and want to do in order to hopefully, one, understand the exposure to risk that’s coming for them and their students, and two, what they might want to do about it.

0:02:26.8 Amy Luitjens: We know that with some of the changes that are coming, prospective graduate and professional students are going to be facing a much tougher challenge in accessing the loans that they might need to afford programs like an MD or a law degree or an MBA or other graduate degree. And with the Big Beautiful Bill or the OBBB coming, the Grad PLUS loans will be phased out as of July 1st, and then we’ll be capping other direct federal borrowing options for students at the graduate and professional school level.

0:02:58.1 Amy Luitjens: We’re gonna get into that today. We’re gonna talk about it in more detail. And we’re also gonna take the opportunity, like I said, to think a little bit about some opportunities institutions might have to help offset some of those challenges. But first, I want to take a moment to introduce my colleague Brett Schraeder, who’s joining me today. I’m so pleased to be here with Brett. And Brett, I’m wondering if you could take a minute to tell the folks on the line a little bit about yourself and what you do here at EAB.

0:03:23.6 Brett Schraeder: Yeah, thanks, Amy. Glad to be with you today about this important topic. I… As Amy said, I’m Brett Schraeder. I lead the Financial Aid Division here at EAB. So we work with both graduate and undergraduate institutions to help them think about their aid strategy, their pricing, where their market position is, and then think through some of the changes that happen, particularly as it relates to federal and state aid policy. And so that’s what we’re here to talk about today. So looking forward to chatting about that.

0:04:01.5 Amy Luitjens: Well, let’s get into it, Brett. I know that there are some particular provisions out there, particularly around the definition of professional programs. And I think that that’s a really important place to start. This is a place where we kind of see the beginning of some of the changes that are happening from the perspective of understanding what is defined as a professional school program, and from there, what that means for loan availability. So, before we get too far down the road, Brett, can you talk a little bit about how the government is thinking about potentially redefining professional programs for the purposes of loan availability?

0:04:41.4 Brett Schraeder: Yeah, it’s a good question, and I know we’ll get into the caps as well here in a minute, but for the first time, the government has sort of decided that there are two different categories of graduate programs. There’s professional programs, and then there’s all the rest, and so there’s a little bit of a debate now about what’s a professional program. In 1965, when they passed the Higher Ed Act, there were 10 programs outlined in the law, the ones that you might come up with right off the top of your head, law and medicine and pharmacy and those kinds of things, but as we all know, but it also said in that law, and any other programs that the department or the Secretary of Education deems appropriate.

0:05:30.0 Brett Schraeder: Obviously, a long time has passed since 1965. There’s a lot of professional and grad programs out there now that are not spelled out in the law, but that are clearly, I think, in most people’s minds, professional programs. Unfortunately, it requires that those get designated as such, and so there’s quite a bit of conversation going on. They had two weeks of negotiated rulemaking a couple of weeks ago or a week of negotiated rulemaking a couple of weeks ago. They’ll have another one starting next week too, and this will be one of the big topics of discussion is what is a professional program, and so we’re watching that pretty closely, and most of our partners are watching that pretty closely, obviously hoping for a more expansive definition.

0:06:18.6 Brett Schraeder: There’s a couple different proposals out there. One is that it’s sort of, I would call it kind of the free-for-all version, which is everything a school designates or has marketed as a professional program will be counted at least for the first year, and then there’s the more probably a little bit more directed one, which is that has something to do with credit hours and licensure and those kinds of things, and those are sort of probably the two sides of the spectrum and then maybe a little bit of everywhere in between. So, we’re waiting on that because that drives some of the loan caps and some of the provisions in the OBBB that we have to worry about and that we’re going to talk about.

0:07:02.4 Amy Luitjens: Great, and I really appreciate you walking us through that. I think that, like you alluded to, there’s so much change happening quickly, and because we haven’t reached a formal designation on what the future will look like right now, it really leaves schools, of course, kind of wondering what they should be thinking about as they make their plans, which we’ll talk about. So, I think that’s a helpful frame. We obviously, Brett, you and I have been thinking about this a lot over the last number of months, and I recently wrote a blog post about this issue.

0:07:33.5 Amy Luitjens: It’ll be linked for the listeners in the follow-up, but what we did in that article was really make a point to kind of walk through a couple of key changes and strategies, and I’m wondering kind of as a next step as we continue to set the stage for the listeners about what is happening, I’m wondering if you could, Brett, walk us through exactly what’s changing and why institutions and students need to pay attention, and I think that latter part is really important. We’ll talk more about kind of how we see institutions and students starting to respond to some of these changes, but before we get there, if you could kind of talk us through the OBBB changes and kind of what’s coming in more specificity, that would be great.

0:08:17.3 Brett Schraeder: Yeah, it’s a good question, Amy, and I know we’ll get into your blog post was really useful, I think for institutions. Probably there’s a couple of, the OBBB changed a lot of things in the higher ed financial aid landscape, but obviously we’ll focus on the couple that really impact graduate education. First of all, Grad PLUS loans are eliminated as of next summer, so students can obviously access them still this academic year, but starting next academic year, students will not be able to access Grad PLUS loans, and Grad PLUS loans are one of, as you know, the big ways that many students helped finance their graduate education.

0:08:59.8 Brett Schraeder: The provisions of the PLUS loan were fairly easy in terms of students able to access the funds, the provisions and the caps were fairly generous, and so those are all now going away. It probably is important, which we’ll probably talk about here, is to note that anyone who’s in a current program and borrowing a Grad PLUS has the ability to continue that borrowing through the end of their program or three years, whichever is less. So current students are not totally affected, although maybe a little bit affected.

0:09:37.0 Brett Schraeder: The other provision which we talked, referencing the professional school discussion, direct loans now are, which, if you’re old like me, they used to be called Stafford loans, now they’re called Federal Direct loans. Those are capped at $100,000 for non-professional programs, $200,000 for professional programs. And so that you can see the obvious importance of the distinction between a professional program and a not a professional program. There’s $100,000 on the table for that. So that’s an important distinction.

0:10:11.8 Brett Schraeder: So both of those come into effect this next July, basically for effectively the fall 26 and future terms. And so those are the two caps. And those are the things I think, Amy, you and I have been talking a lot about and sort of thinking about, okay, how does this affect our partners and who does it affect and what do we do about that? So, love to get kicked off on having conversation about that and get some initial things on the table. I know you’ve been thinking a lot about this.

0:10:48.7 Amy Luitjens: Yeah, and I think the other thing to kind of to that point, one of the questions we’ve been getting from institutions and for listeners on the line, you may be thinking about this is sort of how can we get in front of this? And is there a world in which we can, sort of create any early enrollment activity in the second semester of this coming year that would help our students avoid some of these changes? And I think what I want to say about that is two things.

0:11:17.7 Amy Luitjens: First, unfortunately, just by virtue of packaging a student in the spring this year for a fall start, so a post July 1st start, unfortunately, that doesn’t change their loan availability that will be new as of July 1st. So unfortunately, that’s not the case. That said, there is a world in which if you have the ability to have students start in the spring or very early summer before July 1st this year, that is one mechanism through which some students could be grandfathered into the existing offering. So, if that’s something you’re thinking about, that’s something that Brett and I are talking with institutions about quite a bit these days, as you might imagine, and certainly something that like Brett said, we’d be happy to talk about one on one.

0:12:01.9 Amy Luitjens: I think, in our conversations with schools, generally, what we have found is, Brett, I don’t know if this sounds right to you, but probably the last four to six weeks, we’ve heard just a lot of increasing not only volume, but also movement from institutions as they begin to increasingly digest these changes and think about kind of what it means for them and their students, what it could mean for them and their students. And so the conversations we are having are increasing both in number and longevity, and we are learning quite a bit.

0:12:37.7 Amy Luitjens: I think that what we are hearing by and large from institutions, and many on the line may be thinking this themselves, it’s really a question of, gosh, what does this mean for us, especially in a time when some definitions, like we said at the outset today, are unclear? And how do we plan? And so we’ll talk more about that kind of in the next phase of our conversation here and some of the things Brett and I and others have been thinking about with regard to planning and strategy to kind of offset some of these changes. It’s unclear to us how aware students are of these coming changes.

0:13:14.1 Amy Luitjens: I think we don’t have any hard and fast data to back this up, but we also have not heard or seen any indication of a large scale understanding in the market yet from students that there will be some changes. And so what that probably means is that it is likely as we move further into the spring, there can be some scrambling on the parts of students as they begin to realize that options they thought might have been available are not. And I think that really, at least to me, underscores the importance of working as an institution to think about, one, how we’re going to educate our student community, and then, two, what provisions we might be able to help them with in order to offset some of that scrambling, some of that concern, and ultimately protect both for their ability to enroll and, of course, our ability to bring them in.

0:14:01.8 Amy Luitjens: So, as we think about those strategies that institutions can consider in the short and the long term, I really would love to take a few minutes to kind of talk through the four things, let’s call it, that were in the blog that we posted about things institutional leaders need to consider. Certainly, there are many considerations beyond four, but when we kind of boil it down to the top things that we really want to talk through and really think through as a starting point, we think that that’s probably the most helpful framework for beginning or continuing conversations that some of you may be having already.

0:14:41.1 Amy Luitjens: And the first strategy is really to identify institutional exposure and model out what kind of risk may exist and what we could do to help offset that. And some of our listeners today may be already doing that, and we are talking to some institutions that are, but by and large, we think this is a really helpful first step in breaking through what might be possible and what might be coming. So, when we think about kind of what data institutions should be looking at, how you can translate that into strategy, I’m wondering, Brett, if you can reflect a bit on how you see that and what you think needs to happen in order to take that first step.

0:15:19.4 Brett Schraeder: Yeah, it’s a good question, Amy. And it’s something that, luckily, we’ve been working with institutions for a while in the financial aid optimization world and helping them think about any kind of challenges that relates to students being able to enroll. So this was a good pivot for us. I think there’s two main things that schools really need to be looking at is what has been the utilization of both Direct and PLUS loans over the last several years, probably two to three cycles or two to three terms, however you look at that.

0:15:53.4 Brett Schraeder: So, how many students have accessed those types of loans, both Direct and PLUS, and then what has been the amounts of those loans and how many students are close to or over the new caps. And so now you’re using this data, it’s important to remember, you’re using the past data to anticipate what the future might look like. Obviously, students are already enrolled, have access to the loans under the current terms or the old terms, but understanding how many students are close to the caps, how many students take those loans will give you a sense of where your risk is.

0:16:38.6 Brett Schraeder: And so, so that’s one of the things that we’re encouraging folks to do and really think about what that looks like. And really just assign a dollar value to it, Amy, because right, as you know, at the end of the day, the schools really have to pay, the risk is the number of students and the dollars that they pay in tuition. So those are the first two steps. And then we have some more detailed things that will… I know we’ll get into. But is that sort of anything else you would add to that, Amy? Anything else that you would?

0:17:15.1 Amy Luitjens: No, I think that’s right. And I’m cognizant of the fact that sometimes if you’re working in an institution where data exists in a couple of different places, that can be tricky. I certainly myself and I think Brett has too had an experience or two working in on-campus situations where, say, financial aid and yield data lives in one database and your recruitment and admission function lives in another. We understand that. And I think certainly some of that complexity can at times slow down some of this thinking. And so, again, we’re always happy to help think through that.

0:17:51.4 Amy Luitjens: I think at the end of the day, like Brett said, we just want to make sure as we’re thinking through this and as institutions are thinking through this that we’re really gathering what we know to be true from the past and taking a look at how we can understand, how many students have taken loans, what that’s looked like, and then begin to really digest across different key indicators where we see both opportunity and also places where we might need to make some adjustments in order to protect against that risk.

0:18:22.8 Amy Luitjens: I think, when we think about kind of the subsequent steps of what we would do once we have that information and kind of analyzing the trends, Brett, I’m wondering if you have any examples in your experience, so I can certainly share some from mine, about what we at EAB at least might be looking for when we think about key fields or key data points, including things like credit scores, et cetera, that might help us get a sense of sort of where students might fall on the continuum.

0:18:55.4 Brett Schraeder: Yeah, it’s a good question, Amy. So as you sort of think about kind of that historical analysis, the first step is who’s taken those loans, but then what we haven’t yet talked about is how the private market on the bank side, the SoFi’s, the Sally May’s of the world, the college avenues would fund these students or would step into this space and at what interest rates they would step in at. And so, one of the things that you have to layer onto this, and it’s something that we do for our partners at EAB, is take those historic loan utilizations and then understand we apply some third-party marketing that we have access to that gives us a sense of a student’s credit score.

0:19:45.8 Brett Schraeder: It doesn’t give us the perfect exact credit score, but it gives us a range of where they might fall on the credit scale, because you want to think about dividing your students into those who probably could access the private market at fairly reasonable rates, and then those who probably will not be able to access the market at fairly reasonable rates. And if you think about analyzing, this is now where we get into a little bit more deep dive, is where are your students coming from? Are they coming right out of undergrad? Are they coming from the working world? Are they a little bit older, a little further into their careers? How does your program set up for those? Because as you might think, if you think about your own life, right, you have, when you come right out of college, you may just not have any credit at all, let alone good or bad credit.

0:20:38.7 Brett Schraeder: And so, it may be a hard sell to get a private loan. If you’re further along in your life, maybe your credit is good, maybe it’s not as good, you still have loans, student loans from other things. So, just understanding that nuance, because that gives you that yet next level of risk related to that and understanding, hey, if we lost the majority of our students who are on the lower side of the credit spectrum and took fairly high utilization of loans, then what’s our risk there? And then I think, Amy, what we’ll probably want to talk about and curious to hear your thoughts on this is the next big question is, okay, so, a third of my students are in that bucket of sort of lower credit and higher utilization. Okay, what do I do now? And I think that’s our next step.

0:21:33.4 Amy Luitjens: Exactly. No, I think that’s exactly right, Brett. And it’s not an easy question for institutions to answer. And I think certainly, like we’ve been talking about, all of the data helps quite a bit. Ultimately, what we will likely find ourselves doing increasingly in institutions we’re talking with, and many listeners may themselves be thinking about this as sort of now that we have this information, not only what do we do next, but what sort of tradeoffs do we need to be thinking about?

0:22:03.6 Amy Luitjens: And in our world right now, we’re thinking a lot about there are some opportunities to do some modeling based on that data to determine what might happen to outcomes based on past experience with students if we were to change different inflection points. So, if we were to see changes in student loan uptake, uptake rather, like Brett was just talking about, for that population, what might need to change? Do institutions need to think about offering additional scholarships for those students? Is there a world in which we might want to think about discounting tuition for the entire class in different ways or perhaps for different students at different points?

0:22:48.6 Amy Luitjens: And then finally, do we have discussions about changing our pricing? I think at this moment in time, it’s a really fair moment to have all of those questions. I think it always is. And Brett, I’d love your thoughts on that. I think, gone are the days where we can always think about enrollment and pricing and tuition and discounting as kind of a straight line and year over year, it’s always the same. Certainly, we don’t want to introduce a lot of big changes all of the time for many reasons. But I do think what I’m really trying to say is, there is a world in which as the market changes, as students change and student populations and their needs change, institutions, of course, have to adapt.

0:23:32.3 Amy Luitjens: And as we think with our partners about this, there are moments in time where we do have to consider taking some additional, what we would maybe consider to be risks in terms of introducing new discounting or introducing new scholarships or potentially making some adjustments on price may feel uncomfortable. What the data might suggest is that, in fact, those are the right choices for institutional sustainability. So those are the sorts of conversations that we are having with institutions right now.

0:23:59.2 Amy Luitjens: It’s what Brett and I are thinking a lot about. I don’t think there’s any perfect answer for any one institution that is universal. We really have to think at the institutional level based on what the data is telling us and programs, unique markets and the different forces that are at play based on what we know to be true in the marketplace. One of the things we’ll talk about before we wrap up today is about how our team in particular, folks who have worked in enrollment and financial aid leadership roles on campus who work closely with our partners, really lends that expertise to our ongoing work together so that as things inevitably change with policy shifts, with market response, we can think about with you, an institution should do this as well, kind of how we manage through those changes through the remainder of the cycle.

0:24:43.9 Amy Luitjens: So, for us, I want to be clear, it’s not just a matter of thinking about what changes we might need to make at the start, right? So it’s not just, gosh, do we need to make some adjustments in price? Do we need to make some adjustments in scholarship or introduce some discounting? It’s then once it’s in field, and we’re in agreement about what we are hoping to accomplish, do we need to make some modifications as we go because of how things are shifting in real time? So, all that is to say, I think as that is happening, we keep a close eye on it. I wish… I think all of us wish, that we had a crystal ball right now, but unfortunately we don’t.

0:25:22.2 Amy Luitjens: So in the absence of that, I think it’s just really important to plan, not just around what we’re doing from an enrollment policy perspective, but also what we’re planning to do from a monitoring perspective. So, before we get to that, I do want to just take a moment and say, Brett, is there anything else you would add as institutions are thinking about tradeoffs or changes they might be making right now with regard to these coming policy shifts? So, anything you would add around, ways institutions should be thinking about their pricing, things that they should be thinking about with regard to potentially considering new discounting or scholarships that you’ve been thinking about?

0:26:05.8 Brett Schraeder: Yeah, it’s a good question, and this probably flows into the sort of monitoring, what we would call our monitoring conversation. I think, Amy, you brought up a good point. I think all of the things are on the table, like you said. Do we change our price just right out of the gate? Do we offer some additional scholarships or aid support? How do we think about that? But I think what you were alluding to there is maintaining probably a little bit of flexibility with this and really understanding what this looks like over not just next fall but over the next two or three or four falls or whatever term, fall, spring, summer that most of you have multiple terms, but what does this look like over the next several years?

0:26:53.4 Brett Schraeder: Because I think there is a world where some of these things might change a little bit. We talked at the top of the hour about the professional programs. That list could change and morph over the next couple of years. So, one of the things we’re really helping our colleges and universities think about is if you make those decisions, what’s the long-term impact if something changes, right? So if they say, hey, all of a sudden the caps, we’re not going to worry about professional programs anymore. The caps are now $200,000 for everybody. You may be regretting a decision you made now. So really kind of thinking about how those things play out over multiple years.

0:27:39.0 Brett Schraeder: And so one of the things we do in the financial aid space is create some ways to monitor how progress is going both in the immediate term. So how is your class shaping up right now? And do you need to make pivots in the moment? But also, hey, we’re okay with where we are right now, but this pivot is going to happen over the next year. As much as you could be like a grocery store or something like that where you have a coupon a week, that’s not how higher ed works. And so we want to try to help partners think about, what things do they need to be thinking about in the immediate term and how we monitor and track that and what things we think about in the long term.

0:28:24.0 Brett Schraeder: Those are both important. And in a time when things are changing pretty dramatically and it certainly seems like there could be some additional changes down the road, we want to help our institutions kind of take advantage of things that they’re able to take advantage of and then react to things that happen in the market as well.

0:28:50.0 Amy Luitjens: I think that’s a good point, Brett, and that’s something that as we take a longer view, I wanted to just take a moment to pause on for any listener who might be wondering, okay, so what’s next from EAB on this front? And I just want to reassure folks that myself, Brett in particular, Brett’s team, are always going to be keeping a close eye on any changes that could happen. So it may be very well the case that we’re back with you in a podcast like this in the future, in the not-too-distant future, depending on how quickly things shift. But we’re committed to making sure that institutions have the best information they can have to make decisions in real time.

0:29:30.1 Amy Luitjens: Brett, I know we talked a bit about the monitoring component of this. I think that it’s so critical, particularly given that we’re in a time when things are changing so much. What I would just say about that, too, from my perspective as a former enrollment leader in the graduate space, is I find that it, and many of you who are listening would likely agree, that it is tremendously helpful to have a thought partner to take your expertise and everything that’s happening with your class in real time and bump it up against tracking data and other experts who can support you in that space.

0:30:02.0 Amy Luitjens: I think that’s one of the things that our team both enjoys the most and is most skilled at when we’re working with our partners, particularly in cycles like this where there’s a lot of change and volatility. In that, like I said, not only are we in a position to look at live reporting data to tell us how the decisions we made about the policies and shifts we might have implemented are playing out, but then also what, if anything, like I said earlier, we might want to do about it. So if there are changes we need to make, like Brett was just talking about, we can certainly do that.

0:30:36.2 Amy Luitjens: And just want to say, I think, again, as a former enrollment leader, I think that it can be very difficult when you are in a position of needing to make a lot of decisions in a time where there isn’t always as much information, to also have a broader capture of what’s happening in the market and have a good sense for, along with someone, truly the opportunity to partner and thinking about anything you might need to do to change things. And so, I do think that that’s incredibly valuable, and that’s something that I’m grateful that we at EAB can provide for folks, both in settings like this, where we’re able to have a discussion, and then individually at the institutional level. Brett, is there anything that you would add to that as we think about kind of rounding out what institutions should be thinking about when they’re making these decisions?

0:31:27.0 Brett Schraeder: No, I think we’ve captured them all here. I mean, like anyone who knows Amy or me or working with EAB, we’re really all about trying to understand your data and what that means. And I think giving you perspective that’s outside of your normal lens of, I’m walking onto campus and seeing my students and my funnel and those kinds of things. So, just really, I think the, probably the big takeaways are we know this is going to continue to change and morph. We’re going to watch the market change over time. And so just having some support to better understand that is something that Amy and I are really committed to and trying to help our institutions navigate through this.

0:32:14.8 Amy Luitjens: Great. Well, I know there’s a lot more we could talk about here. And certainly when we’re talking with individual institutions and groups these days, we tend to have quite long discussions about this. But before we go, I thought we could wrap with kind of each providing some top piece of advice that we haven’t had a chance to talk about yet for any leaders who might be kind of overwhelmed or wading through all of these changes but really need to get going on strategy. So is there anything that, as you go first here, you would say in addition to what we’ve been discussing as a piece of advice you might impart for our colleagues on campus right now?

0:32:52.7 Brett Schraeder: I think the only other thing I would add that we didn’t spend a lot of time about is you probably want to spend a little time thinking about what you’re doing in communication with your current students. And to Amy’s point, we haven’t heard anecdotes of students really understanding that this is happening. And so, what are your communications to your current students? And then what are your communications to your prospective students about this? And that may be something that, this isn’t something you have to do tomorrow, but you definitely want to think through this because as we get into the spring, those are gonna be some things that will pop up and you need to be ready to respond. So I would say that would be the only thing I would add to the things we haven’t already talked about.

0:33:42.1 Amy Luitjens: Yeah, I agree, Brett. And that’s something that we’re working closely in the marketing and enrollment side of things with our partners on right now. And certainly kind of to Brett’s point, like I mentioned at the outset, if there is an opportunity in some cases, that makes sense for graduate or professional school programs to perhaps bring students in a little sooner than they might have. And I know that’s not possible for everyone. That also is an option for institutions to chew on if they want to invite students to enroll a little earlier and have the opportunity to be grandfathered in under some of the current loan structures.

0:34:19.4 Amy Luitjens: So that’s a place I would say, one, educate yourself on, and we can certainly help with that. And then two, if there’s an opportunity to quickly kind of move those students through the funnel a little bit earlier before July 1st, that might be an opportunity for some institutions as well. Well, thank you all for listening. We know this is a big, complex topic and it’s hard to break down in a short conversation. We’re happy to have many more individually with listeners if that’s helpful, and like Brett said, we’re committed to continuing to provide education in the space here on this. So stay tuned. Brett, it was so great to have this conversation with you today. So thank you so much.

0:34:57.0 Brett Schraeder: Likewise. Thank you.

[music]